Hello, and welcome to the Chaos to Calm podcast, episode number 62. I'm Sarah, the perimenopause naturopath, your guide through this journey of perimenopause. So if you're over 40 and feeling like you're changing hormones are hijacking your mood, energy, and weight, and you want to change that in a holistic way, then this is the place for you because each episode I share with you, my views on what the heck is happening in your body.

Why you're feeling the way that you are, and what you can do about it with actionable advice to help you feel more calm, in control, less stressed, and more comfortable in your body. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really glad that you're here with me. Let's get right into today's topic so we can shift your perimenopause experience from chaos to calm.

Today I'm super excited because I have the wonderful Fiona from Wild Island Women here with me sharing her story of perimenopausal psychosis, how it came to be she's sharing her perimenopause journey with us, how it started, and how she got diagnosed and her experience through that as well. So let's dive right into talking with Fiona.

 So welcome Fiona to chaos to calm podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today and being willing to share your experience with perimenopause psychosis, which as I was saying before, when we were just joining each other here. I didn't know anything about until we were connecting on Instagram and you asked me what I knew about it.

And, I had to do some quick research to understand what did you know, what had happened for you, and what had been going on. And I really wanted you to come along today and share your story with us so that other women might see or be prompted to not dismiss how they're feeling or what's going on for them, which can happens all the time through our life.

We get dismissed as being hormonal or and particularly in perimenopause as well. People just get offered an antidepressant for hot flushes and things like that, or just, you know, anti anxiety meds and go on your way. So maybe I thought we might just start at the beginning, if that's okay with you, Fiona, just tell us a bit about you and the things that you do and yeah, how your journey, well, I suppose to diagnosis and understanding what was happening for you, how that started.

Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me, Sarah. I'm down here in Tasmania. I live at a place called National Park, which is on the outskirts of actual National Park. So lots of waterfalls and some of the biggest trees in the world, biggest flowering gums are down here, and it's an absolutely gorgeous spot to be. my husband and I have been running an adventure tourism business for the last 13 years. And I've been running also a women's adventure community since 2016. I have a lot of interactions with women and especially perimenopausal women and menopausal women as well. So yeah, it's really great that we can be here today.

I'm talking about this 

subject.

Yeah. 

Before all these perimenopausal symptoms started, I was really living my dream life, like, I had dream husband, dream job, you know, I just dream lifestyle, I didn't suffer from any mental health conditions, no anxiety or depression, panic attacks, I didn't have any history of that in my 35 years of life, and it wasn't until I kind of turned 35 that these symptoms started to show up. 

And what's good to know going back on my journey, when I was thinking about it before I came on here I'm 43 now. So it's been 8 years. And these symptoms were very subtle to start with. So especially for me, it's not until I go back and just really think about where it started and when I first had the symptoms and what they were, and it looked like having a psychosis or a psychotic episode just came out of the blue for me. But now that I'm learning more about it and seeing more psychiatrists and things like that, I am definitely know that there are signs and symptoms of these things as 

well.

And I guess at 35, you would have been thinking, probably not thinking about perimenopause or hormone changes because most of the time, if you present to your doctor at that age, they'll tell you, you're too young. Like at 42, I got told I was too young to be in perimenopause. But I was, and obviously things had started to change there for you as well.

So what was some of those early shiftings or those, like when you reflect back now, what was it that you see was changing or presenting for you there?

The biggest one would have to be my flow. So I was getting heavier and heavier period. periods. So, I kind started around 35, by the time I was like 38, 39, I was having periods so heavy that I could no longer wear tampons. That they were flooding straight through and I had to use period undies and the larger menstrual cups and things like that to be able to and pads just to be able to sleep through the night and things like that. So for me, the most obvious symptoms was that flow. But there were also other things like PMS like symptoms became exacerbated. So I was more irritable, more moody. I was also more tired, exhausted after work and things like that, which I hadn't noticed that before.

 So that's how it started and it's interesting because it just happens so slowly and incrementally over time that you don't realize. So it wasn't until I got a box of tampons and I read that a normal period was 80 mils, around 80 mils of flow.

And I was like, right, I'm going to measure how much I'm bleeding.

Because it looked like the doctors weren't taking notice of how heavy, heavy these periods were.

And, and yeah, I ended up measuring about 500 mils.

So that

That's a lot.

As much as what people lose, like, if you have a small operation, like like

Like that's really significant for your body to try and replace that much iron and blood each month as well. Yeah.

Mmm, and I was seeking, like, naturopathic help, like, so for my diet, iron, I was on Goulds, which is a, yes, a naturopathy in in Hobart. So got tinctures that were very expensive. I think they were like 120 only

for 500 mils. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's all organic and

beautiful, but it is still an investment for sure.

Yeah, and Chinese medicine, I tried a lot of herbs through Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. And so I really went down the rabbit hole of like natural therapies because I was just by this stage like desperate, for like solutions, and I finally went back to the doctor and said look, I'm bleeding 500 mils. And then got more testing done and they sent me off for an ultrasound. But this had been going on for nearly 5 years.

And I, they end up finding a fibroid like as large as a small melatonin top of my cervix. That makes sense.

Which was causing they said, the constriction and not letting the blood just go like all at once. Yep.

Yeah, and yeah, it just, so they definitely thought that, was the fibroid causing the issue. And then I went through some great gynecologists in Hobart as as well, who they were fantastic, the team there, and we had plans to have the fibroid removed..

Because it had got to that stage where it was not going to, if anything, it was only going to get bigger and cause even more issues and was impacting my health.

Mm.

It was a big difference between the GP

yes,

and trying to get the care through the GP than through the female gynecologist. For me, 

and I think some too, because heavy or heavy, like a heavy period is quite objective or subjective, I suppose. It's not until you, yeah. And so medically and naturopathic we deem a heavy period as being either losing 80 mils or more or bleeding for seven days or more each cycle. And I think for most women they don't, they think about perimenopause and menopause as less periods or lighter periods and so that heavy start to things and sometimes even shorter cycles as well as heavy periods takes people by surprise or you don't sort of associate that with perimenopause, but it's one of the most common, and with the PMS, increased PMS, as you said, and also increased anxiety and panic is the most common things that I see or that women tell me about. And it was no different for me.

I had heavy periods, shorter cycles, and doctor told me I wasn't in perimenopause. Yeah, we didn't do any further investigations. I just went off and did my own thing and fortunately I didn't have a fibroid or didn't have one like you having, I do have a history of fibroids there, but yeah, it just is, makes a difference.

And that's why I always think it's really great for people to track their cycle and track and collect that data. So you can, like as soon as you presented that information, your doctor's like, Oh, better do something about that and referred you off and, but if you hadn't come across that packet telling you that 80 mils was a heavy period, You might not have got to that point for a lot longer either.

So yeah, concrete data is good.

Yeah, that was really good to know that 80 mils is normal or like the heavier side of normal. And then anything over that is considered a heavy period.

So yeah, that was really important to know. But I guess, uhm it was around 40 when the mental health symptoms really started kicking for me. I think the biggest sign and symptom which you'll probably see as well, Sarah, is sleep.

Yeah. Mm.

my sleep disappoint. And I was a very good sleeper. Even as a baby I was a good sleeper. All through, childhood, teenage, just really good at sleeping, traveling around the world, always could sleep.

So I started waking up at about two or three o'clock in the morning. not being able to get back to sleep. I was having a lot of vivid dreams when I was getting into sleep. So a lot of things about like my childhood and, like thinking back on things that happened even as far back as a baby as well, like waking up, feeling like I was a little baby and, that I was like not fed enough and it was dark and I was scared and all those type of things.

So they were quite like terror dreams. And I'd wake up at like two or three o'clock in the morning and then not being able to get back to sleep. So that's kind of where it started with me was the sleep. And then it really started around irritability. I was experiencing like a lot more rage. A very, I am a very passionate person around politics and environment and the patriarchy and all those things.

But like, I got even I guess more intense, and even, to the point where even my husband said on tours, it was becoming a little bit uncomfortable. So I couldn't really like rein myself in with these, yeah, no filter. And again, like it happened over time, not straight away. But the sleep really did exacerbate everything and then really started to quicken things up. And then so it kind of just got worse and worse, like I was being really confrontational in, like, family relationships like, being confrontational generally with people that I knew and, calling people out in the community and just things that weren't my usual nature. So that's kind of what happened next. And, my husband kind of flagged it, but, I happened over time for him as well. So, it probably didn't seem so obvious. But yeah, we were like having more arguments at home and things like that. So everything kind of just picked up and got a lot to manage as well, and felt very overwhelming. I wasn't sleeping, heavy periods anemia, all those things. And, it was just after my 41st birthday that I crashed, and that this is where would be my first depressive episode happened for a couple of months but went off food, wasn't sleeping, felt really depressed sleeping in, I stopped talking as much I just retreated from the world and that was very obvious.

So that's what happened just after my 41st birthday and then after six months I started to pick up. So started to get all those symptoms back again of like creative ideas and

So, it's

lots of,

sort of hyper or quite stimulated and extroverted.

it now, I know it as Hypomania So that's what it's called now. But yeah, I would switch back and come back up through to the hypomania phase, I came up quite quickly, and I was back into the season, so it was October by this stage of 2022,

Mm hmm.

and the season had just started, I had just run a huge event in the community, and the event manager dropped out last minute..

So it was all that stress last minute. And, yeah. And I just was spending money more like buying

So it's like, everything's like amplified or at that higher level. And can I just backtrack Fiona when it first happened for you? Or, and even the second time, were you feeling any physical symptoms like a racier heart or, sort of feeling more agitated or shaky, anything like that, or is it more mental, I guess more brain symptoms there?

Depression that I witnessed, I also had a bit of suicidal isolation, which is quite scary for me. And I was quite ashamed, and I didn't want to talk about it.

Yeah, it's interesting how shame comes up with depression, doesn't it?

I 

didn't even mention it to my husband that as well, because I think if I had made a bigger deal, then I would have gotten help then. But yeah, it kind of, and then I kind of flicked back into the hypermania as well. So before it was there, it was kind of gone as well.

Yeah, it went from hypermania. And now quite quickly after the event into what we call mania. So just like lots of ideas and racing thoughts.

And I think you just feel like for me, like really alive. Lots of people love the feeling of mania. And it's, it's, you know, quite elevated and, and people on the outside looking in looks like you just

Yes, quite, really extroverted,

to

so creative, like it'd be great to have all those ideas coming in. Yeah.

yeah, just the creativity.

And then, unfortunately, very quickly, it switched into psychosis.

So what that looked like for me was a complete loss of reality. So it went from the hypermania into the mania after the event, and then on a tour, and I was guiding, and on the way to the tour, I had thoughts and feelings that there was a, I was very paranoid that there was a pedophile ring in the community and that I needed to help out.

And this is all going on in my mind.

And I mentioned something like quickly to Liam. Liam was just like, Whoa, that's crazy. But he thought he'd talked to me about after tour. And I was on the tour and these thoughts kept on gathering energy. And by the end of the tour I thought there was a police car at the top waiting for me Liam was really good at the time.

He kind of I didn't do it enough so it was super obvious to the clients at the time. But he kind of like got me into the car and it was only five minutes to the end point.

And then he was very worried, got me home, even locked me into the car when we fed the horses on the way home.

And yeah, I just became just completely lost in another world. And to the point where he just thought maybe it was just like a one off, it's hormones, maybe in the morning I'll feel better.

So he thought, you know, let's just put me

He probably thought, oh, she's tired, she's had not had enough sleep for so long. Yeah.

It was a big event that she just put on Yeah. and, you know, she's

I mean, there's lots of valid reasons why to, you could see why he would think that as well. Absolutely. Yeah.

So and he had no, had no lived experience of like mental health, really.

Ex girlfriend of his father had schizophrenia, so he kind of had that, but I wasn't really displaying symptoms quite like that, and quite like he did, because it's

yeah, it's a different, a different issue, but also I imagine that it's unique to each person as well, how this might present with that. Am I right? In that.

Mm, yeah, it's on a spectrum. So psychosis is on a spectrum as well, and there's no to experiences that are other saying. So really what happened was I went downhill, didn't sleep, woke up in the middle of the night, saying lights on, lights off, gibberish, not making any sense. Liam just by this stage was, just so overwhelmed, didn't know what to do. Was like Googling beyond blue and, these mental health numbers. And it was like really early in the morning, so he didn't want to start calling people.

And it was finally five o'clock in the morning. And he made a call to a friend and they said, look, like call the ambulance.

And so the ambulance end up coming, but with mental health, because I couldn't actually go into the ambulance because of my state of mind.

They had to what they call chemist, chemically restrain me. So that's using medication. That's a particular. And it took a while, like I wasn't in hospital till 11 o'clock.

Yeah.

the hospital's

you would have, do you have to give consent for that or they have the capacity to do what they need to get you your medical help?

By that stage, there was a police ambulance, and there was also a mental health team that came in to restrain me. So it's through a section.

So you're mentally unable to make decisions for yourself. So therefore, this is a protocol that happens.

So yeah, I was taken into hospital and given, a lot of drugs. Any psychotic medication. And by the next morning, I wake up and I was fine, seemingly fine. Back to my old self and not showing any signs of mania or things like that. So, but then again, like no one really knew why this happened, and all that type of stuff. So I spent the next two weeks in the mental health ward where they sort through what this was and what it could be.

And I had scans and more scans on my uterus and things like that as well. So in the end it was, perimenopausal psychosis, underlying condition was bipolar schizoaffective. So, yeah, it was quite a scary diagnosis. But what I'm on now is estrogen.

Yes.

And thank goodness for the women's health team that helped the psychiatrist with that they had just been on a big, study trip around perimenopause that gynecology unit.

And yeah, they had spent a lot of time learning about perimenopause and psychosis. So if it wasn't for her, I may not have got the help that I

needed. And in that way, do you mean you wouldn't have got access or they wouldn't have prescribed the hormone treatment for you? It would have been psychiatric medications only.

just psychiatric

then you probably wouldn't have had the effectiveness that you've had with the medications now. Yeah. And did they think that, you said, you mentioned that when you woke up the next day and you were like yourself or, was that because of the medications that they'd given you or is that indicative of how long that psychotic episode might happen for, like it's a shorter term, that happens for like 24 hours or does sometimes people experience that psychosis for a longer period of time?

Yeah. Well, like anything, it's how long is a piece of strength with psychosis and some people like me respond really well to the medication and they can be back looking normal and acting normal within a 24 hour period. And then there's people that stay in psychosis for like months, even years.

So they don't respond well to the medication.

And they don't know why, that's there's that medication resistance.

Yeah, but they said that the fact that I hadn't had any mental health issues and I was of good health and all those things that I was able to bounce back quite quickly. 

Yeah. And I imagine your state of health underlying that, like you're active, you're out in a beautiful, apart from the up and down stress there for you. And I don't think we've talked about how you eat as such, but I'm imagining where you are. It's a fairly wholesome nutritional intake for you as well.

So, you know, those sorts of things would be underlying that, for you too.

Yeah, and I was seeing a naturopath, so, that's right. They gave me lots of like diet ideas and things like that as well. As like treatments for the anemia. So and the Chinese medicine and aravedic stuff as well. So I kind of had gone down the rabbit hole of like natural health and what I could do to kind of help myself, as well as living a

good lifestyle. When your mental health was changing, that sort of first time you moved into the hypomania, was that something you'd been talking about with your naturopath or with your GP or your gynecologist? Were they, yeah, were you right, was it something you were talking about with them or that they were, supporting you with as well?

I definitely wasn't. I don't know if it was a bit of shame Or like, I just didn't have much insight into like, my moods and my state of mind.

It just felt like was all internal. And you know, and I was really good at asking. I would say, I'm asking being well, and yeah, so yeah, for me, I didn't I didn't go to the naturopath with like mental health concerns or the doctors as well, or the gynecologist, which they may have suggested going on the estrogen patches as well. But I didn't mention

Yeah, there is so much shame and stigma around mental health, isn't there? And I was talking with a coach, coaching me the other day talking about thoughts and feelings and stuff like that too. And I was saying how I was experiencing shame around something. And I was like, I don't really understand why I've got this sense of shame.

And she said to me, shame comes up because we think there's something wrong with us. And that's what we don't want others to know or to see. And we feel bad about it. Bad about it. So we you know, don't talk about it we don't share it there as well and made so much sense to me in that moment for what I was feeling and, why I hadn't been talking about it or sharing with other people how I was feeling and I realized also there wasn't anything wrong with me. My response and you know feeling upset and the things that I was feeling around it were completely normal In response to what was happening.

But yeah, we have that shame and stigma around mental health and not being able to cope with day to day life or feeling differently or, Yeah. Why do some people cope with situations and I'm not or any of that, but I wonder as well to Fiona in that time period, if you were feeling mania, you've got all these creative ideas flooding in, you might've just been feeling like, wow, I'm really like doing life.

I can feeling great doing all these great things, got all these great ideas, energy, to do stuff as well. So you probably might've felt that was a recovery, especially if you had the fibroid removed of less blood loss and better energy and better iron levels. There too.

Yeah, so definitely this feeling of euphoria is mania, and it can be quite addictive that's why so many people comes off medication is because they really love that feeling of mania and the hypermania. And I can understand.

I used work with a man when I was young, my first full time job and he had bipolar and, it was referred to differently back in that time. And I don't remember the details of it. He lived in South Africa and he had a wife and he had an episode and sort of came out of it in Australia.

He went out to buy cigarettes and never returned. And, yeah, I remember there was a period of time we were working with him and he slowly went he must, he'd stopped taking his medication again, had a period of mania and then started lots of mutterings and talking to himself and saying really odd things and ended up in hospital again for a period of time, but yeah, he'd come off his medication because he did love, or he didn't necessarily love, but that he just wanted that mania, that sense of being able to do all the things and that, and having that energy and the creativity there for him, but I remember the first time he told me that story and I was just like, wow, I just, I was only 21. So I was just like, I have, I just couldn't make sense of how that could happen. 

Yeah totally, I am more understading now. I understand more about the brain and our bodies and how things work. Yeah, just. 

And I 

think the shame for me was also like my mom had suffered terribly through post natal depression, which is another event with estrogen that causes mental health decline. So my mom had tried to get help and there was none back then. Just given some, not even antidepressants, some sleeping pills.

How can you take sleeping pills when you've got four children? 

So mum had been diagnosed with depression and offered no help.

Well, they didn't even talk about it in that time because there was just so much shame around it 80s.

There was, why can't you cope with life? You know?

I was talking to mum and aunties, they, after all this happened, because they asked for your history because a lot of it comes down

Yeah. It's genetic. We well, especially inherit that genetic predisposition. Yeah. 

And my nan actually had gone into menopausal at 42 

So really quick, quickly, really early. Her period stopped. She had such bad, like problems with sleep and like hot flushes and all those type of things. She started sucking on ice cubes and then my grandfather used to start putting brandy into the ice cubes.

Oh, And from then on she actually became a raving alcoholic and her mental health declined so bad that she was like jumping out of car doors and the help back then was the policeman used to come around and gave her an injection.

Oh my gosh.

Valium or something like that, Midazolam or something that they would have had back then.

But you know, when you look back on it and when we're talking about shame, we were also weren't like, have examples of people talking about their mental illness, talking about their perimenopause, talking about their menopause. So unless, we have that, like, shown to us. How are we going to feel when we hit those walls like we're going to be able to have the tools to go and talk about it. 

And perhaps had you known that history of your Nan, your journey would may have been completely different. And I know getting stuck in what if, and that doesn't, it's not helpful, but yeah, like when you go, it's always a good indicator of what your mum and your female relatives, their experiences or when they went through perimenopause, intermenopause, because we do inherit our genes and that predisposition or follow a similar history there as well, but yours might have been quite different had you known and heard about it, what had happened for your Nan and how that might be impacting your journey and experience.

I think even just talking about that it can start in your mid to late thirties, perimenopause. That's a significant thing that people are now talking about, and we've talked about today as well that you can be menopausal, you know, I was menopausal at 48 which is not super young but it's younger than a lot of people but it's such a spectrum and when we are feeling different or our sleep's impacted, we don't have the endorphins that come with having just had a baby or breastfeeding to help, dull the impact of that lack of sleep.

We've got, we need more sleep. It's harder to get it. Your hormones changing, make it harder. It's all that soupy sort of perfect storm for something to happen. Yeah. And, yeah, that's how it's manifested or played out for you, and there. But knowledge is always power, isn't it? And we know

Definitely. And I remember, waking up in the mental health ward and this wash of shame came over me when I realized what had happened and I could, recall some of the things that went on. I remember making a very courageous decision at that moment that I wasn't going to let shame impact me. 

And that I wasn't going to let this emotion kind of drive me. So yeah, I was very conscious about shame because yeah, it's it's it just comes with the territory of like you said when you've got something wrong with

Yeah, or we perceive that we've got something wrong with us. Which you don't, of course, as your body's responding to change of hormones and working with the genes that you have and this that's what's happened. But I think it's so important for us to talk and share our experiences to reduce shame and to try and eliminate shame and that sense of shame.

That people have of there being something wrong with them. So, thank you for talking. And I know you, like you said, you have your community, your Facebook community, where you've shared your story in there before, and even if it only helps one person, it helps one person, but I know that it will have impacted other people.

All of those 2000 women in that group and the ripple effect, there's that flow on through the community and to have more understanding and less judgment and shame, for anyone going through something like this. And even just like sharing your experience means that someone listening today, or that's listened to your story and in your community group as well, it might trigger in them.

 To help their friend or their family member get help earlier on. And get support and even avoid, like getting in early and avoiding a psychotic period or break. Like you've experienced, there as well. And so you mentioned before that sometimes people will come off their medication, which, these are for life medications that you're on now.

Is that correct? Yeah.

They are.

And the same with estrogen too, right? You'll stay on that. Yeah. And

Indefinitely

And, I forgot what I was going to ask you there as well. Yeah, it's completely gone from my head there. So, Oh when 

they go when people go off their

yeah, that's what I was talking about.

How do you stay. Cause I imagine that after a period of time, you might, and I guess if we're being driven by shame and that self judgment, we might think, Oh, I'm fine now I'm okay, there's nothing wrong with me and I'll come off my meds.

 Do you have that sort of sense of, Oh, maybe I could come off my meds or I might try and come off my meds or are you feeling, I guess if you're deciding that there's no shame, you're not feeling like there's anything wrong with me that. These are helping me, live your best life again.

Well, it's been a process. So I think, you know, with, you get a diagnosis like I did, very scary. Words like psychotic and bipolar and schizoaffective, they're really big

Yep.

and really scary words. And to be honest, like, after six months, I stayed on the estrogen and the antipsychotic, but I came off the lithium.

because of the side effect. And six months later, I did relapse in a slight hypomanic and ended up back in hospital for week.

But now another six months has gone by and it just takes a while to accept it with anything. I think sometimes you've got to go off the meds to know why you're on the meds.

And it's just a part of the process.

And you know, instead of beating myself up about that, I mean, Liam got me to hospital. And, like, Liam was actually my husband. He was behind it all and said, look, we can give it a go. Like it might just be acute, might have, now that you're on the estrogen, it might be enough to hold you stable. You know, it might, you might be okay to go on just the one anisocotic and the estrogen. 

And so he was behind me in giving it a go and I went six months, without any symptoms and then summer also really affects mania and then it was a very slight hypomanic episode but went back and got some meds fixed up, but the lithium is more of the mood stablelizer. 

So that's going to keep you out of the ups and downs. But you know, like I understand like why mania is so addictive, and why you want to be off the meds.

Like, I have that lived experience now where I have, it.

And like, I would never have understood at all, prior to myself going to that is you know having compassion for that. But yeah, just, it's just all part of a process. But now I know it's a chronic situation and I need to stay on this medication to stay well.

And there's issues with being in psychotic episodes with brain damage and things like that. So I definitely don't want to create that situation.

So, you know, I want to stay as well as possible. 

I 

think 

that's the benefit for you of, again, knowledge is power. Like, if you understand what they're doing for you, and also the consequences or the side effects of not taking your medications, and having, yeah, then it makes it more doable, I think, for you to stay and take what you need, you know?

And also being in hospital, like I was in a mental health ward. And you know, you have all these ideas about what a mental health ward would be like and feel like. And, I really enjoyed my time. I was there two weeks and then spent another week recently. And just met people just like me. Exactly like me, that were out living their best lives and have this genetic disposition and found themselves in like various life circumstances. And yeah, I've made some great friends that we still keep in contact with and cheer each other on. And yeah, so it's been, these pros and cons 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think having that community or seeing other people going through what you're going through means that it can lessen the shame and lessen that sense of, Oh, well, there's something wrong with me. That's. It's not, you know, it's other people around having a similar experience there as well.

 And I think like you were saying, it's all about that perfect storm, having a genetic predisposition and for you, perhaps more stressful event plus the hormonal event, everything lined up and that was the outcome there for you.

But, I guess you sharing your experience helps others understand the importance of why, seeking help, understanding what's happening in your body and what's changing. And also your family's experiences, your women, particularly women relatives, their experiences in this phase of life.

So I think the more talking that we do, particularly around mental health, as well as women's health and perimenopause the better. I don't think we can ever talk about it enough.

Exactly.

And so, your, so that it's been about two years now. Is that right? Since then. Yep. And how does that feel? Like, how do you feel sort of leading into that anniversary? As such.

Look, it's been up and down. It's just such a process and every day feels different. 

But I'm definitely more more stable than I ever have. Even my husband is like, you definitely the most stable that you've ever been.

And this was like when we've been together for 15 years. So, stability, it's just the processing, some days it feels really big. And sometimes I go months without really talking about it. Yeah, it's just one of those things that, just with anything that happens to us, like you've got to process it, and and that takes time.

You know, it's been two years and I've had operation, the fibroid's been removed as well and you know, even life without a uterus. Sometimes that can feel really big.

Absolutely. Because those sorts of, it's like when someone has to have breasts removed in our society or our culture, that's, those are the things that define us as women. So when they're taken or not there, we have to process what that means. Of course, we're still women. But yeah, we have these preconceived ideas and notions, just like you were talking before about those diagnosis, those big terms and words, even subconsciously, you'd have an idea about what that means, what sort of person it is that has that diagnosis.

And then when it's yourself or you're like, Oh, how do I, I have to change that view. So yeah, it's lots of processing and reflection and reviewing and changing those thoughts underlying how you're feeling about those there as well. And I think if you have someone with you, like it sounds like Liam's really supportive and a great sounding board for you to talk and process things through, but also having great professional support and a great team to help you through this as well.

Yeah, and Liam has his own, his own story. It was very traumatic for him. And he's gone through everything with me. You know, he's had to process it in his own time with his own people as well. So definitely need, as you said, like a big support network. And, it's, I think the thing to know is that we're not alone and and the more I've spoken up about it took me a year to share it in the Wild Island Women group that I run just overwhelming response, like lots of me too's and I felt like that and I'm going to go to the gyno and get checked it out. 

I think the more that can offer ourselves in a non judgmental way it's just going to move the needle for everybody.

Yep. Absolutely. And yeah, I think we've, I've noticed in the last five years, a dramatic shift to more talking about this and our experience as women and seeking second opinions and not being dismissed as, Oh, it's just your hormones or it's just perimenopause. Looking into what's, what is behind it, what's really driving that, the symptoms or however someone's feeling.

So, And let's keep talking, and that removes that shame, the stigma, the judgment our ideas that we have, that we've inherited. We inherit genes, we inherit ideas and thoughts as well around what someone with bipolar might look like, or what someone in perimenopause or menopause looks like.

Menopause doesn't mean we're an old lady. , like our, our ideas and notions are around that as well. So. 

And I remember such a big win was that the gynecologist was involved in my treatment team when I first diagnosed.

Like, that wouldn't have happened in five years ago. That psychiatrist would have kind of stuck to their psychiatry and not gone outside looking for assistance

And wondering why it wasn't working for, you know, why things weren't working.

Huge win. That was a huge win. And then another huge win was one of the beautiful wild island women, we were out on a kite tour, and she actually disclosed to me that she had lived with bipolar.

And she was the first person that I ever met that had a diagnosis. And so when this happened to me, I also with the shame came the ability to recall that conversation that I had with her.

And when 

I got out of hospital, we actually spoke quite a bit. And she really helped me at quite a key time. So yeah, like you don't realize even like the five little minute conversation that you have, like on a walk or at the supermarket.

Literally changes someone's life. And I was telling someone that I've had that experience myself around birth and having babies and I had two caesareans and then I thought, well, that's it for me, I always have to have a caesarean and I wasn't going to have any more children, a chance conversation where a woman said to me, that doesn't mean that, and maybe you should get your health records and speak with a private midwife and they'll be able to tell you if you still can have a vaginal birth.

I had two home births after that and two non surgical births. So that completely changed my life. I wouldn't have had my youngest two kids without that, but it was a passing comment. We were at a kid activity, a home. Where was it? I don't know. Anyway, it was a chance conversation, a couple of minutes and it totally changed my life.

And I don't know if she ever knows that, but you totally can change someone's life in just a few minutes by being brave and sharing and, letting them know that there is a different way or things, the idea around something can be different. So, thank you so much Fiona for, as I said, being brave and sharing your story and continuing to share your story and touch, women's lives around you. Before we finish up, is there anything else that you want to tell us or you want to mention or any advice for someone who might be wondering, or feeling shifts and changes in their body and wondering what to do next?

You know, I just think judgment. We hold so much judgment for ourselves, much judgment for others. And you know, when I was going through all of this, when I was in that stage with my hypermania and the mania and I was out in the community and things were ramping up for me, you know, I'd said and did things that weren't me.

I made mistakes and, I could take so many things back.

You know, and it's important to remember that a lot of this time , it's just can be the illness talking, and it can also be the hormones as well. But there is hope out there and to keep advocating for yourself and find that team.

And it's worth it, even if it takes a little bit of time.

Slowly keep putting yourself out there and don't let that shame and, thing impact you.

It's great advice. I think we're always the experts on our own body. We've certainly known it and lived in it the longest. So if we feel like there's something wrong, I always trust if my clients or women I know think that there's something not right in their body, they're probably right.

Like it's worth getting that second opinion or investigating or asking for more care. And unfortunately, as women, we do have to ask longer and louder. But. Yeah, I just encourage women to do that. And I think that your story definitely shows that we need to talk more and ask for help and support there as well.

So thank you, Fiona. We mentioned Wild Island Women, which is your Instagram handle. And if people go onto Instagram and find you there, can they access your community, yeah, in your bio. Great. And we'll also pop it in the show notes as well.

yeah. And our other business is Tassie Bound Adventure Tours, so that's kayaking based adventures in Tasmania, and that's for everybody. Our families, and husbands.

Great for people, women in perimenopause and menopause and thinking about what do I want from the next phase of life? I want to go and try new things and have adventures.

My husband who runs a lot of those trips. He's well versed in all things menopause, perimenopause. 

So if you want to have a chat to him, he's also just as knowledgable. 

Yes. And that's a really important point too. Cause like I've got two boys and two girls and I educate my boys and my husband as much as I can, on hormonal women's hormonal health and menstrual health and perimenopause and menopause. And my kids I want them to be good allies and advocates.

Whether they're, partnered with a woman or partnered with a man or however it works out for them. Wherever they are in the community, they have empathy and understanding and don't dismiss or judge. But, yeah, can be an advocate like Liam for women getting the support and love that we need at this phase of life.

And trying new things and doing wonderful new things. Yeah. Cause that's what it's all about too, you know, this phase of life. There's so much change. What do we want next for that second half? We go and do adventures and kayaks and try new activities and things. Have something to look forward to. Great.

Well, thank you so much, as I said, for sharing your time and your story with us today and for helping women seek the support and help that they need and, yeah, I think breaking that stigma is your purpose, what you're here for as well and helping people overcome shame and judgment. So thank you so much Fiona.

And as I said, I'll share Fiona's information and details in the show notes. So if you want to know more about her or how to get in touch go visit www.chaostocalmpodcast.com.

 Thank you so much for listening and sharing your time with Fiona and I today. I'm sure you've taken so much from that as I have there. And I really hope that you can learn from Fiona's journey and experience and see the value in avoiding shame and that self judgment and yeah, the value of community and support and talking and sharing our perimenopause and menopause experiences and what's gone on for us.

I really feel like our generation, our purpose here is to help the generation before us to share their experiences and talk about it and heal the hurts and the trauma that they've experienced in their time. And also pave the way for the girls that will be the women coming through perimenopause after us so that they see what is and what isn't normal.

What not just for perimenopause, but for their menstrual health and life there as well. I'll do that. A period shouldn't, a normal period doesn't include pain and P and lots of PMS and discomfort and heaviness and all of that. So yeah, here's to us, the change makers and constantly talking and sharing and creating conversations with our sons and our daughters so that they can, our sons can be great allies and advocates for our daughters and their sisters and mothers and all the women around them there as well. 

So next time we're going to continue the conversation on mental health and perimenopause. And we're gonna be talking about anxiety and until then, keep working on moving your perimenopause experience from chaos to calm.